Who Apologises Better - CEO 👨🏻‍💼 or AI 🤖? How much should we give in to Imposter Syndrome? Pedro Pascal — Internet Daddy? feat. workplace double standards

WW-EP5

Mon, Apr 03, 2023 2:50PM • 43:25

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, workplace, pedro, statement, pascal, impostor syndrome, person, woman, questions, ai, talking, imposter syndrome, wearing, game, pop culture, project, weekly, feel, interviews, amanda

SPEAKERS

Fanny Wandel, Kate Bailey, Google Lady

Google Lady  00:00

You're listening to workplaces weekly, covering workplaces and labor activism and trying to have a remotely decent time doing it. Call us, Craig. David, cause we are born to do it. Let's do this thing.

Fanny Wandel  00:23

Welcome to another episode of workplace weekly, we are four episodes down

Kate Bailey  00:28

four episodes. This is Episode Five. Can you believe four in the can

Fanny Wandel  00:32

I catch up on so fast?

Kate Bailey  00:36

Did we do that? Yeah.

Fanny Wandel  00:37

Hard to say.

Kate Bailey  00:38

Hard to say. How have you found it so far? Funny.

Fanny Wandel  00:41

I've found it immensely interesting. Sometimes I feel totally out of my depth and intimidating but super amazing experience. And I feel smarter already.

Kate Bailey  00:52

I yeah, I definitely feel that we've learned so much in just a short period of time. And I hope that's translating to the audience. And I think from my side as well, finding, I haven't had a chance to work on a creative project out, it's like fun, is fun. And that we can, you know, kind of do different things. And I think that's also been a really nice experience, you know, going week to week and making changes, making adjustments and just kind of like finding our feet because I think the more we produce the show, the more I'm like this show needs to exist. Yeah, there needs to be something out there that is covering serious stuff, but also trying to do it in a way that people can take the information and immediately make the comparison in their life. Yeah. So today's episode is going to be focused on segments. Mostly, we've got our workplace Savage, and we're going to also have our very first pop culture case study. You went absolutely, you know, down to the wire on the Pedro Pascal situation. And this is because we've been working on a really intense project and that project is right the ship and that's going to be coming up for the next two episodes. Replacing actually what place weekly it's not officially what place weekly This is right the ship. Do you want to tell us a little bit about what we're doing was right the ship?

Fanny Wandel  02:07

Yeah, we are producing a podcast. This will be devoted to eight federal whistleblower in the United States In the United States. Commander Kimberly young, clear, very, very admirable person. And I think her story is incredibly important and pertinent. And we don't talk about whistleblowers enough. And more importantly, we don't talk about what happens to them after they blow the whistle.

Kate Bailey  02:32

Yeah, and the ramifications that that has for society. I think whistleblowers have been sort of this abstract presence in our world. But actually, there are very real world consequences. So we're really excited to bring you that production in the next few weeks in place of workplace weekly. But for now, for now, we love our fun here. We love our fun, and I don't think I've ever told you or anyone this funny, but one of my passions in life is developing games. Yeah, any kind of games like I've got just a like a back catalogue of games that I play. Like there's a game called lowest price, which is a fantastic game. I think everyone

Fanny Wandel  03:13

should know that one time KB showed up to a birthday dinner of mine with my friends and she just bought a bunch of cards for the dinner table. They loved it. But yeah, such a reflection of how much you like again,

Kate Bailey  03:26

I do I just think that like because you know that if you go out to dinner with friends and stuff like that, of course you can have awesome conversations. They weren't new people though. I didn't know them. And so it was super nice to kind of like breaker Yeah, break the eyes, but also you get to know even your partner and yourself the questions were really not what I was expecting. So games, bring out something kind of primal in people and I love that speaking of. We have a very exciting new game show segment and this one in particular is called Who Wants to Be a forgiven? Rowlett, Amanda

Fanny Wandel  04:08

That's right.

Kate Bailey  04:09

We are going to be discussing naughty CEOs and their apologies because funny do love a good CEO apology?

Fanny Wandel  04:18

Yes, fuck yeah. Good one.

Kate Bailey  04:21

Yeah. Good one. I mean, have you seen some in your time that you've just thought, fuck, that's a mistake.

Fanny Wandel  04:25

Yes. Yeah. And those are fun too, but in a completely different way.

Kate Bailey  04:29

I think it's quite interesting because when it comes to the CEO apology in the middle of like a public crisis, it can kind of be a huge leverage. Yeah. To the activist advocate side of things.

Fanny Wandel  04:42

It's a make or break moment. For sure. Every time Yes, yeah.

Kate Bailey  04:47

Yes. There's also been a lot of talk about AI replacing us taking our jobs I for one

Fanny Wandel  04:53

knee every day with you. But yeah,

Kate Bailey  04:57

she does bring it up every day we meet up if a I could replace anyone or anything, I'd fucking love for it to be CEOs that don't have a clue, I developed this concept and who wants to be forgiven as the game where we've selected two scenarios to play the game with to kick this off, then we've both gone off and provided a prompt based on the vibes of that quote to AI. And AI has generated an apology. So the game goes, we read out both of these statements, and each of us has to guess which one is the real CEO, and which one is AI. And I think like, it should always be like, which is the best statement like which actually does best. Yeah, bonus points are available in this game. The bonus point is available if you feel that you can identify either the statement maker or who the statement was inspired by. Okay, so like you can take a shot in the dark and get those magic points. It's up to you then I guess at the end, we just like stock up the school and figure out who's a better apologizer naughty CEOs or AI boom. Let's find out with that. I think we need Amanda to roll once again, the beautiful who wants to be forgiven theme

Fanny Wandel  06:18

All right. First up, we have deer everyone. It's been three years since we launched a beer for women and called it feminism. We'd like to apologize for the naming and branding of the product. We know now that it was a mistake to use the term feminism without any impact for the groups who should have been benefiting from the project. Only men capitalized off of this product. It is inexcusable that we avoided valid questions block critics and gate kept the conversation. We understand now that this was an ignorant and thoughtless way to approach this project. You're sorry for the hurt and confusion and caused me fucked up. All right. Second version, okay. We fucked up. This statement is way overdue. However, it's high time that we acknowledge and address the criticism of our project in 2018. That's resurfaced around the current discussions of sexism in craft beer. We're writing this today to acknowledge the fuckup and poor handling of the female beer project we did in 2018. And the frustration and hurt that our actions and inactions caused as a result, we're sorry, we apologize for the lazy and tone deaf name and branding of the product. And the fact that no impact was built into the project for the groups should have been centered and celebrated by it. We recognize how the name and branding can have harmed women trans and non binary people's right to be taken seriously in the industry and elsewhere and perpetuate sexist tropes. You apologized to all the signatories of the open letter and its author We apologize to people within the craft beer industry and beyond. There's no excuse it shouldn't have happened because we should have known better and we're sincerely sorry What do you think didn't and and and and in jeopardy

Kate Bailey  08:00

it is first of all, I think the first statement was kind of better 100% But I believe and I'm going for extra points that this was the goals are awesome statement in response to the FEM a Obeah a subject near and dear to my heart. I can't really claim a point here because I do know that but I think it was the second one that was real and it was by girls are awesome.

Fanny Wandel  08:26

You are completely correct. And I agree with you the AI one is actually a better apology.

Kate Bailey  08:32

It is genuinely a better apology. It's I think the tyrant. Yeah, yeah. It's blunt and also like the tone is not trying to drip with cool like it feels like they were trying to like preserve some sort of coolness in that second statement. Yeah. I love that when now comparing them like as

Fanny Wandel  08:55

I say, I mean, I put this into the AI and I reacted the same way as you I thought it was much better and more interestingly, I mean this is a company that's six months later just fell off the grid.

Kate Bailey  09:08

They did they close yeah. Okay is guessing guess the real apologies. Anyways

Fanny Wandel  09:25

Are you ready for my second one? Yes, I

Kate Bailey  09:27

am. Hit me.

Fanny Wandel  09:29

I don't think you're gonna get the bonus but it's okay. Team. This has been a difficult week for our company. For those of you who are not able to attend our town hall discussion today. I wanted to share what we discussed the way I communicated layoffs distracted from our number one priority, showing care for the employees we laid off and demonstrating the grace respect and appreciation they and all of you deserve. There are a number of things I would do differently if I could. The quote I included from Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. was inappropriate and insensitive. I should have been more Front about the layoffs in the email more thoughtful about my tone, and more concise. I'm sorry. Many of you have reached out to me this week with feedback, questions and support. Thank you. I should note that this is from January of this year. Wow, January so like you because I just

Kate Bailey  10:18

all I know is that a white person definitely avert Martin Luther King and right before blackness. Yeah, yeah.

Fanny Wandel  10:24

Anyways, next one, dear employees this week has been difficult for all of us as we have had to make the difficult decision to lay off 7% of our company. I know that this news has been heartbreaking for those affected and for their families. I want to express my sincerest apologies for sending such a long email that included a quote from Martin Luther King, Jr. Why believe that this quote is an important reminder of what makes a great leader, I understand how it could have been seen as insensitive, random appropriate in this situation. I want to reiterate that our number one priority remains the same to show care, grace and respect for our employees who have been laid off. We understand that this is a difficult time for everyone. And we are committed to helping those affected through this transition with compassion and support. Again, I'm sorry for the way this message was delivered. Sincerely. What do you think? Oh,

Kate Bailey  11:17

I feel want to

Fanny Wandel  11:18

hear the quote, like just for the hell of it. Yeah. Cool. So like, imagine you get a 1700 word email from your boss. Letting you know without flat out saying layoffs or people are getting fired, but pretty much letting know that almost 10% of the workforce is being let go. That includes in the email, I am reminded in moments like this something Martin Luther King said that the ultimate measure of a leader is not where they stand in the moments of comfort and convenience, but where they stand in times of challenge and controversy.

Kate Bailey  11:53

That's so insulting right. Now, yeah, because like knowing the use of it, I mean, immediately, I was just like, this is completely wrong. And you can tell a white person is using this quote, but to use it in such a like, facetious way to kind of like reassure people in a time of crisis is just insulting to the person who said it, and to the people hearing it. Wow. I'm torn. So I'm gonna look at my answer, but I want to provide my rationale first because I just I think I might be maybe if I get it right is because of this reason. And that is I'm choosing this one because it sounded more defensive. While they sounded completely similar. This one sounded a little more defensive to me. So it's either a compliment to AI, or like a total shit on humanity as we know it. So statement two is AI you're right

Fanny Wandel  12:56

you've just won a million dollar Yeah. Money.

Kate Bailey  13:00

I don't know who it is though. So oh my god, I

Fanny Wandel  13:02

don't even remember now. I think it's called pager duty. Oh, yeah. tech company in California. Yeah. Again 2023 California tech company you know, it's people of color are amongst those getting laid off naturally. I think I'm not sure that their CEO it's a Woman No, no, she's white. She's white presenting

Kate Bailey  13:24

in terms of a format moving forward if you've got a great apology

Fanny Wandel  13:28

send us that shit send us that shit I will also just defend I think we're just really good at this game.

Kate Bailey  13:32

We are very we are very good at this game complaint that we made I'm gonna design the rules of and that we have both one oh my god what is this like a fucking the way we've set this up the way we've rigged this is how men get through life. Yeah, like this is how they build their little companies. So we're winners because we say we are in the interim please enjoy an interview free episode of workplace weekly and our workplace savage and out pop culture red carpet. Anything else to add fun Well,

Fanny Wandel  14:06

that's it for today on who wants to be a forgiven forgiven

Kate Bailey  14:23

so I was just about to say, we don't have a name for this. I was not gonna be like, Oh, fuck, it's a Pop Culture segment. I will think of something better. Yeah, well, you know if anyone has any ideas of what we can call this, this is a pop culture workplace for now. Welcome to pop culture workplace. The segment on workplace weekly where we get deep into the pop culture moments that surround our days or more likely in those misery rectangles we call our phones. Yeah. All the stuff that we find that we can break down for you guys, hopefully in an interesting way. Funny. Yep. Coming in hot coming in hot you got something been? Yeah. Tell us, like so

Fanny Wandel  15:06

many others on this planet I have newly started to appreciate Pedro Pascal. I know people know him from Mandalorian I know him from Last of Us. I know him from you. You know, it's who you are for me from you. Oh, I thought you meant the show.

Kate Bailey  15:24

Learned I like I learned about him when you started reading about this.

Fanny Wandel  15:28

Okay. Yeah, we'd love him. Pedro Pascal has been around a long time. So long. He was in season four episode one of Buffy.

Kate Bailey  15:38

Oh, well, we did talk about, like, I feel like he's like one of these people that I know. And I recognize him. Absolutely. But like that connection just wasn't that it's, you

Fanny Wandel  15:46

know, he's a man. So he gets to hit his peak in his late 40s, which I'm grateful for. I just wish women could do that too. More often,

Kate Bailey  15:55

according to Don Lemon, their past their prime. Sorry, my bad. Yeah, sorry, Don. Mr. Lemon. But So

Fanny Wandel  16:02

Pedro is letting the internet on fire, especially with his interviews. And he was recently kind of declared the daddy of the internet, internet daddy. And what happened with that is he was doing all the promotional tours for Mandalorian. And last of us, and he did a interview with Vanity Fair and got exposed to like fancams. Where he then was asked, you know, what's his feeling about being the internet study, this was a revelation to him, he had to have the concept of it explained. And he very famously said in the clip, but daddy

Google Lady  16:35

is a state of mind, you know what I'm saying? I'm your daddy.

Fanny Wandel  16:39

And he was charming as hell I get it. This in turn low, because he's in the public eye right now. He's under a bit of a pair social microscope. One that is is, you know, his fans, people who are watching the interviews feel like they can relate to him so likable that you feel like you know him. And because of that people are really prescribing a lot of personality traits and attributes to him. And it puts a lot of pressure on an individual. Oh, you live like that? Oh, yeah. And I think he's been very accommodating. I've watched a few interviews with him, and he's definitely leaned into the internet daddy thing. More recently. It seems that you know, the it's worn off for him. It's not as entertaining anymore. Yeah, we're getting a bit old, a little bit, little bit he doesn't want to indulge in anymore. He's been a really good sport. He's played along. Yeah, now. He's tired. And I totally understand. And on the red carpet, this mom route. Yeah. beginning of March, he was on the red carpet where someone handed him a phone full of, you know, sexy tweets for him to read people basically like sharing very, very detailed sexual fantasies with Pedro Pascal on the internet. And it's very dehumanizing.

Kate Bailey  17:54

I mean, if it was a woman, we'll get to that KB.

Fanny Wandel  17:58

We'll get to it. But yeah, he basically took a read chuck a little bit, handled the phone back. And he said, Thank you, and, you know, rejected reading it out loud. And I think that's completely reasonable. What I found interesting and why I ended up talking to you about it, was seeing the internet light on fire, talking about his right to privacy, his rights, a little more professionalism from both the fan and the interviewer side of things. And I just sat there wondering, you know, of course, that's really important, and he shouldn't be made to feel uncomfortable. But where's all this outrage when we see it happen to a woman?

Kate Bailey  18:36

You know, yeah, I guess we're looking at yet another double standard. Hmm.

Fanny Wandel  18:41

Yeah. I mean, we just talked about Pamela Aniston. We did. We did. Yeah,

Kate Bailey  18:45

I think this is a great example of a someone taking some agency and I commend that. I also think, you know, going back to his original embracing off it, you know, I'm a people pleaser, like if someone's like, says something mildly offensive, like, I just don't like, but I know that it's not ill intentioned. Yeah. You know, I'm going along with it. Like I'm in a, I'm in it. And I will validate what everyone's saying, because I just don't, yeah, I'm cool with it. So I get it. It's his job. And like, the last thing you also want to do is be that celebrity that rejects that fans or rejects the power of social relationships, because that means something to someone and it is a currency. Yeah. And he's also he's at

Fanny Wandel  19:33

work right? He has to present himself a certain way. So you can't get mad off the bat or anything like yeah, that would be a problem not just with the fans, but with the paychecks that he gets to go around doing his promotional

Kate Bailey  19:43

absolutely, yeah, absolutely. There's consequences all around, you know, and you're put into the situation. You know, everyone's gonna see how you react and how you deal with it and bringing it to workplaces. So these comments happening in his workplace like, let's Look at it if you were in a job interview, you know, and people were blowing people up this way, and you think, Oh, well, like that doesn't really happen for women. It does. Yeah. For women it does were always commented on on our looks or something like this, it can be someone else or, you know, like a woman even making these things. But the thing is, like, why is this narrative a part of the professional sphere? Yeah, like, why do we have to be a cyst with it? And I see it with like, a lot of male celebrities nowadays, even that, like I can think of any names, but like that kind of like just treated a bit like Harry Styles

Fanny Wandel  20:34

hairstyles, Justin Bieber. I was going to say, I'm not saying I'm a believer at all. I've never believed but No, neither. I can have empathy. I will say, yeah, he's close in my age. And so I've been very aware for a long, long time of how he's been treated. Yeah, you know, the whole, like, let's kill Justin Bieber, so we can get to pack back. And it's like, you know, he's 16.

Kate Bailey  20:53

So there was a, there was a clip circulating a couple of weeks ago with Jenny McCarthy giving Justin an award on stage. Yeah. And she kit like, essentially grabbed him and sort of like, kissed him very inappropriately.

Fanny Wandel  21:07

That's right. Yeah, that's going on fire. And I was right. Yeah.

Kate Bailey  21:11

And the thing is, after which he also gave post interview, I did grab his butt. I'm single. But I think that's Cougar rape, and made a lot of comments about being a cougar, and yada, yada, yada. I've

Fanny Wandel  21:22

talked about a virginity before. I mean, it's so invasive and so wrong. And this is a kid.

Kate Bailey  21:27

Yes, however, and what we're talking, we're talking about the men now and you raised this point when he first brought it up with me. And that is, why can society see this so easily? When it's examples of men experiencing it? Why is the reaction and the defense of these individuals rightly so, so much quicker, and so much less divisive than if it was a woman or anyone that you know, isn't a white man? Yeah. So, essentially, so I think that's very interesting. You also brought up when all of this was happening, the comparison of Scarlett Johansson,

Fanny Wandel  22:02

right. So I mean, that was the first thing I thought about when I saw this stuff going on with Pedro Pascal. I remember the clip from her press tour doing one of the vendor's movies. And in multiple panels and interviews, she got in she got asked by male journalists if she had to wear underwear underneath her Black Widow suit. And you can see there's one clip especially where she's sitting next to Jeremy Renner, I think, and he just looks like he's had enough as well. Because she just is like, what is this question? Why, why? And she's like, I'll leave it up to your imagination. It's so sick.

Kate Bailey  22:41

We gotta roll that we

Fanny Wandel  22:42

Yeah, we're gonna roll it right now.

22:44

Were you able to wear undergarments? If you're like the fifth person? That's because what is going on? What? Since when did people start asking each other about injuries about their underwear? Because it is such a skin tight. Here's leave it up to your imagination. Whatever you feel like I should be wearing or not wearing under that costume. This is not a well, well, is it inappropriate to ask somebody what kind of underpants they were? I didn't ask you what kind? You just asked me if I was wearing any

Kate Bailey  23:14

grace. I mean, it's just feral. Absolutely feral.

Fanny Wandel  23:18

She's someone who has been able to carry multiple different movies, a respected actor who has been around for 20 plus years, and is a heavy hitter in that cast. Honestly, like she's not nobody in there. No. She's a heavy hitter. And then to see the stark contrast between her male counterparts and the very serious questions they get asked, versus everything with her just gets boiled down to her appearance. How does she stay in shape? What does she wear under it? What do you think about the fashion when she's worn the same thing for this movie franchise for a decade? Gets a little tired?

Kate Bailey  23:53

Yeah. And I think it's full circle as well. Because you brought up from a previous episode, Pamela Anderson, we also talked about Sally read the NASA person who was going up into space, the questions that they were asked, and it just feels like, yes, we could be talking about celebrity culture and celebrities in their workplace. And it's a totally different kind of environment. But I think that space reflects society incredibly well. And on a like weekly basis, I would say to like, average it out across the year, I hear comments from women, especially in workplaces with just these little comments like these tiny little things that just invalidate them. Yeah. And you know what it's like to walk into a room as a professional person or to do something you know, with purpose and immediately be reduced to what you're wearing. Yeah. How you say something, not what you're saying. Yeah. Or any myriad of troops that you can be taken to task for

Fanny Wandel  24:54

No, no. And I think also what's relatable with the Pedro Pascal thing for me and I That's it, Stefan Not just, I can project it onto myself as a bartender, or former bartender, where what he did is just like when I have some drunk idiot hitting on me, and I just smile, and I want the moment to pass by, and maybe maybe it passes by, or maybe I've now given some sort of indication that it's okay to persist with this behavior. Yeah. And then it always, always, always reaches a point where I'm fed up. Yes. And where I then have to underline to them and break the sort of escapism fantasy and be like, hey, yeah, that was part of my job. Yeah. To be nice to you.

Kate Bailey  25:35

Yeah. That's the thing. We've all got to be nice at work. And when you receive shit, like if someone said that stuff to us on the street,

Fanny Wandel  25:43

I happened to me last week on the train, you know, one second, I'm just trying to get this drunk guy to stop talking to me, and by the saying, Hi, whatever, and my own business, but it suddenly became an open invitation.

Kate Bailey  25:55

That's the thing. You never know, when you're giving that invitation. And I've had disagreements with my partner about like street harassment because like, if someone says anything to me, yeah, man on the street, I don't bother anymore. I can't do this, like in between, like, just be nice. Like, just ignore it. Because like, if you ignore it, they just keep going if they really want it. So like, I just go zero to 100.

Fanny Wandel  26:21

I know, it's so funny. But I think everyone should try doing Honestly, though.

Kate Bailey  26:25

Because at the end of the day, I'm saving myself time, because in those situations, you know, they keep they're just going to keep going until you're extreme with them. And I'm like, well, thank Fuck, I'm not at work, because it's the only time in place that I can actually be like this. My question is, how can we improve this as a professional, like, realm of conduct? Like don't comment on how people look don't overtly sexualized them? If something is a joke, like don't beat it into the ground? Yeah, yeah. Know when

Fanny Wandel  26:57

to stop, please. Yeah, no, because that is what ruins it. Right? Like, he seemed to in Pedro, Pascal's instance, he seemed to enjoy it

Kate Bailey  27:06

like any woman diplomatically, complimenting my shirt or commenting on my outfit today. It's

Fanny Wandel  27:11

nice to be nice. I was getting a sincere compliment. But yeah, it is just its boundaries. And it is that like, you know, and I get it, maybe not everyone reads social cues, the same or anything like that. But it is then opening that space for someone to be like, Hey, I know you're having a nice time. I'm not.

Kate Bailey  27:27

Maybe that's maybe that's also the point is like, even in the workplace, and going back to some workplace averages that we have had, we really need to evolve workplaces, because that's where we're actually talking about to the point where people respect and respond to the boundaries that are set. It shouldn't be a constant reiteration on the person who is setting the boundary to drive that home, because they will get frustrated. And then you just like, cast? What is it? No, I was gonna say, I don't

Fanny Wandel  27:59

What were you gonna say

Kate Bailey  28:00

castrate Kastri customers?

Fanny Wandel  28:03

I don't know. Yet. You can say cash. Right?

Kate Bailey  28:05

Yeah, anyway. Yeah, like, we need to kind of like, draw those very clear lines of, you know, if, in this workplace, you know, someone says, Well, why don't do this, because in the same way that we the celebrity world reflects our workplaces, maybe it's about the changes we can make in our workplaces to be like, if someone communicates something to you, and you do not respect it, they will go to management. And this is the process. Yeah. You know, celebrity culture does is never going to have that.

Fanny Wandel  28:35

Yeah. Now I guess we just wait and see, right? Because if the internet and the industry become aware of his discomfort, will they stop? I guess that'll be the real thing.

Kate Bailey  28:44

We'll learn in the case of women.

Fanny Wandel  28:46

Exactly. Will it persist? Because then that's where we then have our answer, right. I'm not saying men don't get sexually harassed or objectified. But when we notice it, we stop.

Kate Bailey  28:55

Yeah. So now he's at this point. Yeah. Do they still even and

Fanny Wandel  28:59

I talked to you about this as well. Brendan Fraser. I've been really enjoying watching his career. Come back to life. I think it's horrible. What happens to him. He for if you don't know. I mean, maybe 20 years ago, he had an incident with someone big at the Hollywood foreign press basically molested him touched him inappropriately, something like that. He was very open about it. And he basically got shunned from the industry. And here we are. 20 years later, he's getting I'd like I can cry. Again. I'm sorry. I'm so pathetic and emotional, but like it, you know, he deserves that like to be cast out that way, because that's some of the most isolating part of it right is to be open about your experience. No one wants to hear it. No one wants to be with you anymore. You get blacklisted. 20 years later you come back and you went a fucking Oscar like good for you.

Kate Bailey  29:49

Yeah, and where's this gonna go? I mean, it's I just

Fanny Wandel  29:54

want to see like a female counterpart to Brendan Fraser because off the top of my head, I can't really think of someone with a 20 year hiatus. Who got shunned and then comes back like that?

Kate Bailey  30:02

Well, no one's made the comeback, but I know all the ones that are shunned. I mean, Rose McGowan is oh my god dang. Yeah, example. And you know, every time we bring up examples, like we brought up Scarlet and Rose McGowan, no one's perfect, but they, you can always clearly differentiate the misogyny they experience from whatever mistakes that they're making. And these are pretty prime examples. Now, now you're right, funny, we watch we watch like little hooks over this internet Petro Pascal situation, and we're gonna figure out if it stops if it stops. And then we've got science and data.

Fanny Wandel  30:38

Yeah. Oh, love data. Love data.

Kate Bailey  30:41

All right, on that weird note. We will catch you next time for our pop culture workplace segment.

Fanny Wandel  30:50

Ooh, catchy, really catchy.

Kate Bailey  31:00

We want to improve the conversations that people have about workplaces, but that can't be a one sided conversation. Well, if we were white men at fucking would be anyway, if you want to engage with workplace weekly, perhaps you have a question for our workplace savage segment or you want to share your qi quit story or your look at my little workplace victory story. Do send us a DM on social media via Instagram at hand and heart.edu or Twitter via H underscore and underscore H media or send an email to admin at hand and hot.edu. We also have an anonymous Submissions page on our website handle hot.edu/workplace Weekly, where you can send a voice message or leave us a written submission get involved with us and engage you never know we might be able to help. All right, here we are for another segment that we love to call that is cold. We don't just love to just fucking call workplace savage. Welcome. Hi, funny. Hi. Okay. So what's on the agenda today for workplace Savage,

Fanny Wandel  31:58

we have yet another entry for workplace savage. This is from a woman. And it starts off with saying, Hello, do you have any thoughts about imposter syndrome in young professionals five years into the job or perhaps below? We see this a lot in leadership as well. But seems like many young professionals feel like they're under qualified or under delivering. Maybe this is an outcome of poor communication about expectations. But leaders might do this on purpose to keep people in line and wanting to prove themselves to be bigger, better or faster. Yeah, that's a tricky one. It hits hard. Yeah,

Kate Bailey  32:33

nuanced.

Fanny Wandel  32:34

Have you ever felt imposter syndrome?

Kate Bailey  32:36

Oh, um, fuck, I didn't expect that. I'm sorry. No doubt, no doubt. Like, it's just, um, no. And, but but but but let me let me just break that down. Let me break that down. I'm an autistic person. It's very weird. And maybe it's a little personal. But like, I am not fulfilled by other people's perceptions of me. I don't perceive that perceptions of me like I'm not the kind of I don't have that social element where like, how someone perceives me is the first thing on my mind. Yeah. And that's why I can go around and be a little dick. And I really just don't care. Like people see it as as it can be like, Oh, shamelessness. Oh, like very confident. Yeah. But it's actually not. It's just I'm not thinking about the consequences of how someone would have deceived me. So when it comes to impostor syndrome, I've always just believed that because I'm autistic, I only put myself in situations where I have the expertise to deliver where I really feel I know the topic. Yeah. So it's almost the opposite. Like, I'm more like, No, I am an expert. I've worked to be in this room. Yeah. And in fact, my thing is like opposite of imposter syndrome. I think a lot of people think I'm an impostor, maybe because of xy and z. So that's my experience of it. But what about you imposter syndrome? Oh,

Fanny Wandel  34:00

yeah. Yeah, I've talked about it so many times. Yeah. But yeah, I always have kind of like a bit of pangs of impostor syndrome. And I think it's from just kind of like my approach to work. In general. Like, I can become very obsessive and manic about something, it'll be praised, and then I'll get a new bigger assignment. And it scares the shit out of me. Yeah, even if it goes well, I can sit there and internally freak out being like, why am I here? Why am I here? Yeah,

Kate Bailey  34:29

I think that touches on the heart of this because imposter syndrome conceptually began a lot from the female perspective from a woman's perspective, but I think it was the gateway drug to to the fact that this sense of not belonging not being in the right place or the right thing to match your skill set or what feeling some sense of inadequacy Yeah, is symptomatic most of capitalism and I think this Huson, who wrote in touches on that a little bit with like keeping people in line wanting to prove themselves bigger, better and foster. Because really, when we recognize something being an imposter, we are acknowledging the hierarchy that exists. Like, you don't deserve to be at this level of the hierarchy. Yeah, no matter what it is job that you're doing or whatever, but you're recognizing the hierarchy. And you're saying, Oh, I shouldn't be in this band. I'm not meant to be here. Yeah. And I do think that that is symptomatic of the conditioning people from my generation and your generation have experienced as we've gone through the educational system into our professional lives. And we know that managers frequently undermine people and frequently do try and make people feel inadequate.

Fanny Wandel  35:52

Yeah. And that could be through a variety of different ways, right?

Kate Bailey  35:55

microaggressions backhanded compliments, yeah, you know, like, Oh, you did such a good job. But you know, or just whatever it is, it's like, Oh, I love how you use that color, like, whatever or you feel it. Right. You feel the inadequacy statement. Yeah, no matter what the statement is. So it has long been a way for managers, particularly in corporate environments, but also I know in hospitality, to maintain and leverage the power dynamic.

Fanny Wandel  36:25

Yeah. Especially because I would say within hospitality, most people in management positions actually have very few qualifications for it, other than working experience as a bartender or a chef. Yeah, whatever. Yeah,

Kate Bailey  36:38

I had a very interesting conversation with a woman once about impostor syndrome. And I raised the question at that time, and I don't know the particular whether it's particularly relevant now. But is impostor syndrome, a version of internalized shame in the same way like internalized misogyny can be or like different things like that? Because are we taking these things on in order to perpetuate feelings and things within ourselves? Which maintain us? Yeah, society,

Fanny Wandel  37:11

only looking at my personal perception of it from for me, I think, when I have the imposter syndrome, I think it's tied in with something that I've just had drilled into me, which is backed by I don't know if it must be the Danish law of Yente. Telling myself not to get too big for my britches. Yeah. deflate the ego a little bit. And I think that's what my imposter syndrome very often does. It's to keep me in check. And my ego in check. Yeah. And it runs wild. Yeah. Not my ego, my imposter syndrome.

Kate Bailey  37:42

Yeah. And it reminds me of a story from a workplace. I remember, it was the last person that ever employed me, like as in the dynamic of like employment, which going back a farewell. And I asked him one day, I said, Why don't you say thank you to anyone who works here? And he said, first of all, why would I thank them, they work for my business. And second of all, you've got to treat them like dogs. If you give them too much compliments, too much validation, they're not going to keep wanting it. Okay. And with like, no, like, this was just a completely normal thing to say. Yeah. And that, to me, kind of indicated very clearly how the power dynamic works in a person's mind like this. Because this is someone who has so much confidence, they've never questioned anything they've done in their life. Yeah. Like, they've never had a moment of self doubt. Yeah. And you can fuck until the right. So if we juxtapose the funny that's like, could, you know, not be said to or like you're working in that place. And that's how your boss feels about you. With the actual person saying that thing, I think it becomes very clear what that dynamic really is, and what we have to do the work we have to do, which sucks. We shouldn't have to do work to break this. But I think it's the same thing as any kind of work around politically driven things because it ultimately is connected to something political. Yeah. Capitalism, management, power dynamics, all of these different things. Yeah. You have to find a way to untether yourself from those things. Maybe that's the best advice that I can give. If you're someone experiencing impostor syndrome, if that's what's happening for you. What can you do to cut that together? Yeah. Because Is that something that really you should be taking on when you step back and you look at the constructs that are driving it into your head? Do you want that? Do you accept that? Can you just get rid of it overnight? No. Are you an idiot for experiencing it? No. But what is the next step? How do I work past this? How do I use Is this to make me better position to deal with this fucked up world?

Fanny Wandel  40:04

Yeah. Well done. All right. Yeah.

Kate Bailey  40:08

Funny. Any other thoughts on impostor syndrome?

Fanny Wandel  40:10

No. I mean, I think especially with what you said last, you know, of course evaluating the external factors that might be leading you to feeling this way. But if it's like me, I think a lot of it is driven by yourself. And so that is something that you need to work and resolve on an individual level.

Kate Bailey  40:28

Yeah. And I don't think we're those people that are like, go and work on yourself, like, open your chakra. It's not like that. Yeah, no, it's not at all. It's about being the most clarified version of yourself. Not the strongest, not the best, just like the most clarified version of yourself that you feel like you can be as a professional self awareness.

Fanny Wandel  40:47

You know, that's really honest. You know? Yeah, we love self awareness. Love a

Kate Bailey  40:51

little bit of self awareness. I could name a few people who've back in dire do some but yeah, but we weren't. We're gonna end this workplace Savage here. And we'll catch everyone next time. But absolutely. Where can people send the questions if they have them?

Fanny Wandel  41:05

So if you'd like to send us a question for our workplace savage segment, you have a few options, you could write us on Instagram that's handled heart.eu. We also have a Twitter H underscore and underscore H media. You can also send an email to admin at hand on heart.eu. And we also have an anonymous Submissions page on our website that's at hand and heart.edu/workplace weekly. You also have the ability to send a voice message or leave us a written submission.

Kate Bailey  41:34

We would love that we would love it we love it, love it, we'd love and sign most your problems send us your problems. Thanks Manny.

Fanny Wandel  41:41

Thank you next time

Kate Bailey  41:45

what place weekly was produced by Kate Bailey and finding one doll for hand and hot media the publishing arm of hand and hawk and before you can follow hand and hop on Instagram via at hand and heart to AU via at h underscore and underscore page media. Any inquiries related to this broadcast please email admin at hand and hop.eu I music was composed and performed by Amanda and produced by Amanda with Kyle startup. You can follow Amanda on Instagram or listen to their music on Spotify, Apple or SoundCloud. If you love Amanda's music, please consider buying it from Bandcamp support Andy always our artwork was created by NYX Renton, a fantastic photographer and graphic designer and you can find them in the links in the episode description. You can always find workplace weekly on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, SoundCloud, and Vimeo. And basically, wherever you get your podcasts for those wanting an RSS feed, the link is in the show notes. Thank you so much for listening. Hey, you. Yeah, you. Listen up. Workplace weekly is an entirely independent production funded by the commercial activities of hand and heart. We do not run any membership or subscriber options, but we ask you that if you'd like to support our work, please share our work on socials. Tell your friends to listen to an episode and send them a link and rate review and subscribe to us on Spotify or Apple, maybe both one post or one share or one review makes a huge difference. And if you would like to support us and appreciate the work we do, this is what we recommend you do disappoint us. Thank you so much for listening